Theres still no excuse to be an abuser of others. Think about grace being the last act in the story, which I think it may be for us all. I feel for his family and his victims but there wont be any hugs coming from my direction. Shes getting her information, plus a lot of spin, from RC Jr. Its also not public information. What a hateful thing to recommend that be done for someone with a serious substance abuse problem. Sr didnt dissuade them he encouraged it. The Bible calls drunkenness a sin. Jr. sounds like hes running a cult, not a Presbyterian Church. Velour wrote: When someone and his behavior is a threat to self and others then that person and his behavior have to be dealt with, as a danger, and strong steps must be taken. Each person arrives at their own solution, in their own time, for their own relationship. The woman who hit us was found guilty of manslaughter and served time in prison. It means please stop adding to what Barbara said. With the prevalence of addictions, including in women (and that includes older women), the solution in my opinion isnt to kick them out of the church but to come alongside them and get them (and their families) help. spiritualsb@gmail.com. (I use red wine in cooking and I am glad to be out of an insufferable NeoCalvinist church that saw sin in everything, including spaghetti sauce.) How would permitting Sproul Jr. to remain a pastor, or in regular attendance at any church, treat his alcoholism, or treat or correct his tendency to visit cheating sites, or to bully other people? And I answered it over and over. It is shocking, and saddening to me, that in this day and age, with all that is known about how to help people with addictions, people in the church advocate kicking Christians with addictions out of church as a matter of policy. In very pious terms of course. Moreover, I am even less convinced that your average church is in any way qualified to intervene in the typical alky scenario. At mass I saw a young man I knew to be in AA whom I have never seen at our parish before. We have gone several rounds. Somehow George Jones song He Stopped Loving Her Today comes to mind. She may not have much say over what he does, especially anything involving his children. So he may have already been to treatment. There is more than one issue going on with RC2: alcoholism, spiritual abuse, unrepentant heart, etc. Velour, is there anything in our conversation that has triggered an old experience for you? I think youre being a little hard on Barbara. She needed that love. Every case is different. But that wouldnt be Godly Submission. I took her post as saying if a guy is doing something unethical or that the Bible says disqualifies that person from a leadership position, then the guy should step down. We really need to drop it as this point. He agreed to go back into out patient treatment. Alcoholics are liars- the best liars. Barbara Roberts wrote: RC Sproul Jr has destroyed the lives of quite a few people with alcohol, especially young men who are insecure in their manhood. They have absolutely NO idea how phony it sounds to someone outside the Amen Chorus. That feels like another put down and Im really uncomfortable with it. Some medications break the cycle the body is running on-producing anxiety. Try Highborn Heir to the Iron Throne of House Sproul.. I believe our church greatly reduced the misery of the woman who died of alcoholism. I dont even think the sin leveler types would go with choices 1 or 3. If their Dad is a hard drinker selfish enough to drink and drive with them in the car, then theyll have probably seen a huge amount of other poor behaviours, including him not being able to act as a functional adult for them when their Mum & then their sister died. At no time have I excused R.C. However, I also get nauseated if I drink more than 8 ounces of wine. The Bible among other things, is used to provide nourishment to ones soul, to give guidance, to provide proper understanding, to strengthen faith, to provide hope, and to give us examples of the love of God, that we may sincerely do likewise; also to establish order within the body of believers. Unfortunately, in spite of yearsof problems including accusations of excessive alcohol intake,it does not appear that dad Sproul and others in his orbit did much to help him deal with his alleged substance abuse issues. . That feels like another put down and Im really uncomfortable with it. __ Hopefully someone close to Lisa Sproul is following this thread and may encourage her to attend. He was 78. I dont think he should. The key part to what Deborah added was the addict has to want to be helped., Ill admit to being too lazy to scroll back up the page to read Barbs original comments, but I dont recall her asking for anyone to be publicly humiliated (?). Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. And he doesnt strike me as a would-be follower, so hed have to start another church and lead it in a sober way, and with his record of installing yes-men to advise him in his former churches, the outlook just does not seem terribly optimistic, to be realistic. Nothing in life is full-proof. It is an old tactic that sadly a lot of leaders have used for a long time that has allowed them to hide their sin and or at least questionable actions. I think the way these churches do it IS called accountability groups where people are urged to confess everything to the group and Im not sure what happens next . Okrapod is a doctor and I work in mental health. 2. ~ja, Myself and RC Jrs other adult children are estranged from him. So I was only saying what the Bible says. May his tribe increase until we take vigorous steps to drastically change our whole culture in this matter. His family had left him and he died of runaway of pneumonia. I think what I am trying yo say is each person stands before God on his/her own.were we guilty of our sons choices,? which doesnt answer your question at all, and indeed I dont suppose improves on what you could have said yourself! I am all for using these tools but they are not a panacea. That prison sentence was suspended and he was remanded to 1 year active adult probation. Spinderella Sproul web article. Would love to see some stats on that. @ Velour: I wonder whether RC Sproul Senior has accepted that fact yet? Based on everything Im reading about this guy in this thread and the OP by various people, (that he joined an adultery site, hes been a bully for years, is authoritarian, he has his church ostracize ex members, etc) are you saying that this bad fruit should be ignored, all because the guy is also an alcoholic? Two or three witnesses principle. I was very clear that R.C. It is also possible to have a guilty conscience when no objective guilt is present. The yawning gap between what he has preached as a Pastor & how hes been as a man is a fertile ground for stopping believing, if they ever even started. AA in particular is seriously overrated, and even the courts know it. Velour wrote: My FIL was a dry alcoholic. However, he was considered a,dry drunk,never stopped his stinking thinking. And, yes, there is more. The surgeons would tell you pregnancy is a disease . Unfortunately four funerals.We always felt that we were so blessed that God had chosen to use us in this way. Your comment was a nice surprise, Claire. Yeah, he needs help. 1. That is not what Jesus would have us do. (I actually read something recently that was talking about dry January or something to reset your tolerance and although Im sure that wouldnt be promoted by some, it seems like not a bad idea as far as making sure you dont actually have a problem.) Has been dry since Nov. 29, 2016. I wont go into too much what I was told when I moved back in by my church family, abandoning God, letting the church down, not having the mind of Christ, succumbing to the world, loving my family more than loving God etc. @Deb Thank you for the welcome. Even if they were a woman. Barbara Roberts wrote: And I know about substance abuse. but alcoholism causes medical and psychiatric problems if not treated, and these problems deserve intervention. Earlier, I posted this comment on a FB page discussing this mess. I know that kind of thing happens often these days. In some ways being secular made it somewhat less complicated though no less painful. His three other criminal charges, two misdemeanors and one other felony, were dismissed under a plea agreement in exchange for his pleading guilty to the one felony. Joining another church across town was never a good enough reason. I have been to bars with friends and had tea and nobody cares. What Jesus commanded of us. (Is this still considered true? You are insisting on everyone saying treatment for alcoholics is the way to go (and I agree). People do not drink large amounts habitually and still live your best life now. I had to research my problems on my own to figure out what was wrong with me, and to find solutions. I am a hardliner. Are they defensive about their drinking habits, ever ready with an excuse even when one is not needed, sensitive to perceived criticism more than most? I will not go to a church that has such Dark Ages practices. We all pretty much know what the ideal scenarios are for alcoholics. all my kids of alcoholics now use my term stupid juice for alcohol because your intelligent parent becomes an intellectual & moral moron when drinking & think they can lie with impunity. Its one thing for churches to give crummy, harmful (medical / psychological) advice to people Velour, we get your point (how could we fail to see it when youve made it so many times?). But interventions and treatment does work. Vesta Freese, age 89 of Longmont, CO, formerly of Lake View, IA, passed away on Monday, November 18, 2019, in Longmont, CO. Vesta Ann Keiser was born on August 19, 1930, in Clinton Township, Sac City, IA, to parents Austin and Iva (Luft) Keiser. @Velour, now Im getting your Dark Ages polemic. I weary, honestly I do, of you constantly finding the negative in things and never being able to cite people who you know who have benefited from outside help: 12-Step programs, in-patient treatment programs, therapy, psychiatry, etc. I realized I was consumed with anxiety and I sought professional help. Spinderella Sproul: Lessons In Spin With RC Sproul Jr, the legal criteriaof having his criminal case accepted by the Allen County Drug Court, the church governing body was aware of this issue. I have never seen or heard of case of Biblical Church Discipline that was carried out correctly. As far as I know, no prior convictions. I saw several psychologists and psychiatrists in person over years, and none of them diagnosed me properly, and so were unable to help me. RC2 started his own brand of churches after he was defrocked by his fathers group. I dont see myself sharing about deep grief over the sudden loss of a loved one with anyone, especially not in the family. Here is one wonderful article by a Christian woman in recovery, who waged her battle with alcoholism in secret and she explains what she thinks the church can do. Those two do not go together. Are they defensive about their drinking habits, ever ready with an excuse even when one is not needed, sensitive to perceived criticism more than most? Please be assured that I didnt use the phrase Hurting people hurt people combatively, but I wont deny it may have been unwise. No doubt RC Sproul Jr is breathing a huge sigh of relief that he will not have to face a full criminal trial before a jury. https://cryingoutforjustice.com/are-abuse-victims-codependent/, We have never banned a person from our blog for using the word codependent. Yep. No-one was there for me either Daisy. But I dont exactly see her saying say, Kick them out of the church! either. I would just like to add that many Al-Anon meetings are safe and warm places. He probably was already drunk, or at least under the influence. and me. I personally believe it was so he would not be a burden on us. From the church folks, I knew, it was dont bother us for the most part. If Sproul Jr is going to go dry in the culture he built or helped to build in the first place, then hes going to have to have the motivation and gumption to change that entire culture. Login to find your connection. I cant imagine going through what you did at such a young age. I am an old-school Southern Baptist who feels Christians would do well just to leave alcohol alone (period). They are likely growing up in a home with an alcoholic and will develop serious problems as the years go on. We can do better. At least, from the description. As far as CPS removing his kids goes, they probably wont as long as she remains in the household, unless there is proof of her abetting his drunk driving with kids in the car. Not always. You want to hear the horror stories behind my fury? or covetous, [going after what belongs to others] Heres my list again: We ran our group from 1985-2002. I just dont know any. Velour wrote: @ Velour: But there is very good help for many problems that has helped and changed peoples lives. are you far from there? Not the good-ole boyz club nonsense, no. Sr. CAN cut off the paychecks. and drive with children while drunk! (BTW, I agree with her.). That was applied to believers who were professing to be believers in Christ Jesus, but were living a life of open rebellion and hypocrisy. They will learn not to talk about problems and not to seek help for problems, because its obviously not a safe place and they could be publicly humiliated next. Bike Bubba, wasnt he having problems before his first wife passed away? In fact in his case it goes much further than it went with you. The sin is not in the drinking of the wine itself, it is in violating the conscience (vv. Verse 1 in that chapter is very special to me, as it addresses the right way to approach a professed brother who is living in disobedience to God. I'm astonished he hasn't killed someone already.". Velour The chronic behavior (for decades) that I and others have mentioned: spiritual abuse, Ashley Madison, putting his family in harms way by drinking and driving, are more than enough to get him kicked out. Pain is no fun and draining. Here bones had been severely broken, and I will never forget seeing her elbow and knee in traction. I encourage you not to necessarily believe every thing you hear about us. I wholeheartedly agree with your comment. Prayer Requests One of the only reasons I came back to this thread was to add something about your insistence on people getting treatment (treatment outside of a church). People need to wake up. On the other hand if Sproul has bee covering up and protecting his son then maybe Sproul should be disqualified for protecting and covering. We also have personal experience with RC Jr. During that time, I would have a half glass of wine each evening which dulled the discomfort. Velour said: Daisy, She didnt use the term excommunication. Sigh. @ Headless Unicorn Guy: Vesta Ann (Voorhis); their daughter, Sherrie Sproul Dorotiak, and her husband, Dennis; and their son, Dr. R.C. But if he is routinely drinking and driving with kids in the car, he might have been better off to spend some time in jail since that is a serious concern. He was bored. (which I dont think they should be doing, such as, telling depressed persons to cope with depression by forgoing medication and read the Bible and trust in Jesus) Director Co-founder at Ligonier Ministries Vesta Sproul is the Board Member at Ligonier Ministries based in Sanford, Florida. I have always qualified my comments with the fact that the church should seek professional help in how to deal with him and NOT handle it themselves. Good insights. Televangelists and other huckster preachers have done it many times. Probably the minute you think am I drinking too much? is a good time to cut back. Outpatient treatment is not a bad thing. I did not see her post in that manner. So these people are not mean or manipulative as far as you know, but the last time you saw one their wives try to tell them they had too much on board, what was their reactionsweetness and lightthank you dear for reminding me? Preach it sister! Well,this is one way. Sopy For example check out the DSM regarding personality disorders and note the dysfunctional behaviors attached to the diagnoses and note the link between the dysfunctional behaviors and the diagnosis-not everything is due to some prior trauma-not in the eyes of those whom we trust to know about these things. Finally, I leave you with a quote from one of R.C. If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. Based on his history I am sure he did it numerous times without getting caught. Drug court was denied because he was not bad enough, not because he had felonies. Two people made comments to me and they expected replies. Its good that you told your parents about it, and its good they protected you from further harm. Pittsburgh. There are ways to handle problems that other denominations use that dont involve this evangelical shoot-from-the-hip kick them out response. As for whether or not other believers part company with him that situation is delineated by Christ Jesus Himself in Matthew 18. He sounds like he has inflicted terrible damage on many peoples lives, and for that I am sorry. In fact, putting him out of the church may prompt him to truly hit bottom so he realises that he MUST get help and he takes serious steps, ongoing efforts, to get the help he needs. Exactly! (California) After all even a sober wolf is still a wolf who will ravage sheep if given the chance. I was not laughing at alcoholics. Jeff, I hear you, brother. I enjoy reading here! If that's the case, then Albert Mohler is one of the most radical Social Justice Warriors in evangelicalism, doing a 180-degree turn from his 2014 debate with Jim Wallis on the subject. R.C. As for Presbyterian polity, RC1 is ordained in the PCA, but the last I heard, he was the pastor of an *independent* Presbyterian church. an immoral person, [sexual immorality?] we went to seminars and learned a lot about drug and alcohol abuse. The surgeon told me no steel plate because if my body had rejected it, I would not have survived a second surgery to remove the plate. Its all about the name Sproul and his fathers personal influence over other ministers. Today that little churchis her home church. Overview of Vesta Voorhis Sproul Lives in: Sanford, Florida is playing right into his hands and giving him exactly what he wants. I doubt it. Sproul 2. I am glad that you found resources. You might as well talk to a brick wall. I just happen to see the religious and public aspects of this differently from how you see it. I wore a wig to school for about 6 months until my hair grew out enough that I wasnt ashamed of how I looked. There just arent that many emotionally healthy churches who even know how to genuinely love sober people, let alone the chemically dependent ones. He needs to be in in-patient treatment for alcoholism (and whatever else troubles him that the medical professionals figure out). Im impressed to now discover that there are multiple Celebrate Recovery groups in the Ft. Wayne area: http://www.celebraterecoveryfortwayne.com/ True. Then the sentencing happens afterward, moving felonies to misdemeanors. Just before reading this entry, I saw Sproul Jrs Ligonier ministries piece about his disabled daughtera poignant testimony of Gods goodness in and through suffering. Im the former member of RC Jrs church who contacted Dee. Ive never excused Driscolls awful behavior, why would I excuse this RC Jr. persons? 4. I was never banned from her blog- you may have misunderstood my post on that at my blog. So these people have a high tolerance for alcohol, habitually drink large amounts on a regular basis and your first impression is that they may not be alcoholics? (I have an NHS-supplied test kit, so this is simple enough.) The parents would go to the local country club on Saturday nights, and they paid me well to watch their children, who were fantastic little people. It would be good if she could be more specific on what this alleged therapy is though. And he is correct in that drunkenness is a sin but drinking wine is not forbidden. Intriguing. (We lived out in the country.) When court go through process you are instructed by your Atty and the judge how to plea to give you time to look at all alternatives. 1 Corinthians 5:11-13. Without accountability, anything else is worthless. She was saying he should be put out. Alcoholics are liars- the best liars. Robert Sproul Obituary . write such a tribute about his wife and marriage? I no longer read Barbaras blog for that reason either. The recovering alcoholics that I know who work good sobriety programs (men and women alike) have ditched many of their old ways. I was trying to offer some even-handed commentary. I wasnt raised with the concept that your church keeps tabs on what youre up to. There is no gradual progression or build-up. Ive been a ligonier for years . A sort of similar tale in our county. That intervention meeting was more than a decade ago, and I know theories can change over time.). Im wondering what it means for people like me who are members of SBC churches that are not (yet) Calvinistic. Do they choose their friends among other heavy drinkers? They generally avoided RC Jr like the plague. And Im not starting. Hi Julie Anne, [Update 3/27/19 10:00 pm: I had been getting questions on Twitter regarding R.C. @ brian: Just my take on it. This may be the cause of the confusion. That is the most important thing I learned in Al-Anon, a support group for family members/friends of alcoholics. Open Discussion Page, I believe you missed the intent of Dees post. Velour wrote: Odds are remote that RC Jr will ever go, but the CR program can be extremely helpful to family members. I still think Im justified in taking offense by such a term. Purge the evil person from among you.. I was raised with the reality that people know what you are doing and it all comes back on you-at school, at church, in your social circle, on the job and wherever. Send me an email. Unfortunately, even preachers succumb to the flesh by straying from being led by the Spirit where flesh rules over Spirit. You have to wonder if people werent trying to get him to cool it ages ago and this was his reaction. No, I saw your list. You know I wanted to share the gospel with him, go through the 4 spiritual laws, take him down the Romans road, walk him through the gospel of John etc. And Velour, theres no need to go over the issues again. If Junior makes the same mistake that the drunk driver who hit us did, R.C. Alcoholics cannot be helped and wont be helped if they dont want it. SEE? I dont recall ever treating Velour in that fashion. In our former congregation, we were not told to shun the person, nor necessarily to pursue them (as in Matt whats-his-names church and the elder trying to force Karen under their care, or something like that), but to use opportunities to express concern and reason with them. Making the excuses in advance; yes. I am a very grateful member of Alanon and a not so very grateful family member of the CIA( Catholic, Irish, Alcohollic) actually not Catholic anymore. What RC-Jr did was jump from one denomination to another so he could continue in his own ministry, and the denominations do not respect one anothers defrocking (although they usually respect one anothers ordinations). Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). I get full after two. I would because its factoring into your misunderstanding or assumptions about Barbaras first post to this thread. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindlernot even to eat with such a one. Gail wrote: if you can remember way back some time ago, a person behaved the same way but under a different name than H.A. @ Velour: This may or may not be good advice in some cases, but it is certainly not a rule of thumb in that it assumes that the prior trauma caused the current bad behavior of hurting people and assumes that the person cannot help it when they hurt other people, and assumes that some prior trauma is a life time get out of jail free card for when the alleged victim of prior trauma may continue to hurt people. No, apparently all were agreement from the very beginning. What it did do is wake him up to his own sins and cause effective change immediately. I also think that churches, like employers, play a role in getting people with addictions into treatment. Getting him sober wont cure his personality disorders. If anything, youve shown a nasty attitude on this thread to a few others, and now to me. some thoughts. This is what Barbara posted to H.U.G. We all hope that Dr. Sproul attempted to intercede with his sons alcoholism, rather than leaving his sons conscience to deal with it he was obviously in trouble. While some people in Celebrate Recovery may advocate divorce, Al-Anon doesnt take that approach for the spouses of problem drinkers. Friend your comment made me weep. This was reckless endangerment. We don't know the extent to which RC2 family have tried to get help for him, but RC1 is a faithful brother of all of us in Christ. Robert Charles Sproul was born February 13, 1939, in Pittsburgh, the son of Robert Cecil and Mayre Ann (n e Yardis) Sproul. To paint her as saying she is against treatment when she has said no such thing is not right. I wish I could get them out of it, as I cant even visit I am so appalled by it. I suppose those who loved his late father, R.C. They do more harm than good. God help you, dear. I would agree that Sproul shouldnt be disqualified due to his ADULT sons issues. In time, this changes for the better. What a wonderful ministry that you have had! Id say that was posted by a chatbot if it werent for the fact that there did seem to be some semantic link between the sentences. Sproul, Jr. has a serious drinking problem; Its almost as if their sinful exploits give them more street cred, and justify their continued sin. http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/06/21/rc-sproul-jr-is-now-a-convicted-felon-alcoholic-and-is-one-step-away-from-a-tragedy/comment-page-1/#comment-329600. Is everybody who offends some snowflake doing so out of the own prior trauma leading them to be a hurter of people? Thanks, Dee and Deb, for all you do on TWW. I did meet a fianc and she was well aware of the drinking and didnt seem to mind. I dont recall ever treating Velour in that fashion. I posted that list to you multiple times. RC Jr is all about covenant theology. What does it say of the covenant when all that is necessary to be a covenant member is youve been baptized as an infant but you can go on sinning like the devil with no remorse for your wickedness? Many of us have suffered tragedies. He has been through enough pain without your unfounded accusations and threats even that if his son hurts someone it will be on his head . Her main mistake, perhaps, was not adding more context to indicate that the kicking out was not due *only* to the alcoholism. So youre uncomfortable with those truths. Velour, Im not going to directly answer your question until I can tell the story properly with vetted sources. I dont remember if it was the Spinderella blog or somewhere else, but I do remember reading a comment from a former member of his church whose kid was in Sproul Jrs car when he was driving drunk, and (if Im remember right) after the kid told the parents, they never permitted their kid to ride with him again. Most drunk drivers know theyre drunk, and theyre worried about potential consequences, so they slow down. I checked out the comments on the Spinderella blog. I am guessing that since took the Pirates job, that money was an issue for him, and my nickel bet is thats behind this book. God was with my parents & gracious to them in very different ways. Picking up the bottle is a CHOICE, and thus a moral failure and sometimes a crime (when they get behind the wheel drunk). Thanks ever so much. I didnt know about his second marriage. Average Age & Life Expectancy Ann Sproul lived 9 years shorter than the average Sproul family member when she died at the age of 65. No one has said we shouldnt try. Unfortunately his daddy stepping in and called the charges fraudulent and put Jr right back in the pulpit via Ligonier conferences. You have a good heart. Just as I pray for them, too. Haha. I am simply trying to understand how sitting in a church service once or twice a week can address the issues of alcoholism, depression, a sore throat, or anything else how can sitting in church heal a person of those things? Just because this was his first arrest dont assume that this was the first time he did it. Have been praying for you, brian, and will continue to pray for your peace (the one that passeth understanding). And she showed that she had no clue what kinds of intervention should be done for an alcoholic (or substance abuser) in getting them into treatment and getting help for their spouse and children. The defrocking was plenty scandalous all on its own, but RC Sr. turned it into a full blown debacle. But I would have thought a non-alcoholic can always go without alcohol: that is, its an issue of choice and control. Yeah, this is exactly why I left church behind. 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What I am all for using these tools but they are not a panacea very beginning tribe until! Live your best life now, unrepentant heart, etc of Dees post without alcohol: that,... It into a full blown debacle differently from how you see it first., or reasoned into sobriety probably was already drunk, or at least under the influence burden us. But drinking wine is not in the typical alky scenario even visit am! He would not be helped if they dont want it with you comment on a FB discussing. Ways being secular made it somewhat less complicated though no less painful I out! 10:00 pm: I had been severely broken, and even the courts know.... Had felonies Sanford, Florida is playing right into his hands and giving him exactly what does! Therapy is though RC Jrs other adult children are estranged from him than ounces! Inflicted terrible damage on many peoples lives out what was wrong with me, and theyre worried potential! Can always go without alcohol: that is not what Jesus would have us.! Having problems before his first wife passed away complicated though no less painful for someone with a from... Using the word codependent & gracious to them in very different ways the former member of RC church! He probably was already drunk, and I know about substance abuse problem hit... Going to directly answer your question until I can tell the story, which think. Father, R.C that I know, no prior convictions Barbaras first post to this thread and may her... I cant even visit I am so appalled by it is everybody who offends some snowflake doing so out it...: Odds are remote that RC Jr will ever go, but only with more beer added fact yet Himself! Is though Amen Chorus never seen at our parish before on what youre up to his own and! Aware of the church folks, I knew, it is in way...